Clouds

conservative

blames Socrates for societal problems

freedom of speech has serious consequences

          Socrates says that world doesn't care what we do (no Zeus/divinity)

decline of values, particularly in the youth

              Pheidippides says no to Strepsiades

seriously considering killing himself to get out of debt

            first rule that Socrates taught him (we can infer)

                      is Socrates mad that he would be willing to kill himself or that he can't remember the rule?

                            Plato says philosophers must have a good memory

rhetoric

natural science

1. putting fleas in wax to measure how far they can jump in "flea feet"

          Aristophanes: worthless, unnecessary

2. analyzing intestines of gnat

          Plato's Socrates not interested in natural sciences

3. looking at Heavens

            Aristophanes: should humans try to know the minds of the gods?

corrupted him, loses morals

sophisticated people lack values

"sophia:" wisdom

charged money

new way of thinking leads to atheism

oaths to gods no longer matter

fear of the gods broken down

            making of thunder and lightning

Zeus and other gods become superfluous in a purely naturalistic view of the world

source of comedy

conflicts with more traditional Greek views, which see it as a source of beauty

old-fashioned, out of date

indifferent to applause, popular opinion

common, sensible ideas of justice

        don't be mean to your parents

avoid immoderate pleasures

gives long speeches

talks more about what we shouldn't do than what we should

revolutionary, modern, bold

uses dialectic rather than making long speeches

              ultimate source of victory

              used by Socrates

praises immoderation

            how can we resist desires when even Zeus gives in to them?

Just Speech: make men sissies

Unjust: so was Hercules a sissy?

Just: avoid

Unjust: Homeric heroes went to the marketplace

works both ways: Strepsiades not smarter than Pheidippides

Pheidippides beats up Strepsiades over a dispute about poetry

          first debate whether Pheidippides should beat him up or not

Pheidippides threatens to beat up his mother, whom he is also smarter than

Strepsiades burns down the thinkery

            Socrates above the law, no one can out argue him, so appeal to force is all Strepsiades has

because Socrates did

        claims in Apology that his real accuser is Aristophanes

        Clouds points towards trial of Socrates

"friendly critic," not mean spirited

Clouds only appear after Strepsiades loses his faith in the gods, at which point his education in rhetoric begins

nature becomes your god

            things such as justice and virtue go away alongside belief in the gods

relates to Milean Dialogue

            Athenians not interested in justice, as they hold all the power